@skoonk

Posted by: @skoonk

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I'm not sure if this is the best comparison, but here it goes: Sit down on the floor with your knees straight. Your ankle is more or less 90 degrees from the floor. Now scootch your butt in, which causes your knees to flex - my ankles however, drop and there's a lower edge angle between the floor.

Do that with your hips facing forwards, and you'll see that the angle doesn't do that. This is why turning the hips is so important.

Most beginners aren't working on pencil line carves or their fore/aft weighting, so good on you!

I haven't ridden that board, but you might actually be pushing its limits for carving already.  It doesn't have much effective edge and it's softer flexing with Paulownia and biax glass, so it's not going to handle a lot of edge pressure (especially if you're railing turns on steeper hardpack).  I'm not saying that it can't be done, its just not going to be as easy.  The toeside is more forgiving as it's easier to absorb the chatter (and may be easier for you to stack your weight over that edge too).  If you hone your heelside on this board you'll probably be in a good position for your next one.

You may need to keep your weight more centred so that you don't overpower the tip & tail.  The magnetraction does give you more grip (and ankle steering) underfoot.

Posted by: @skoonk

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I'm not sure if this is the best comparison, but here it goes: Sit down on the floor with your knees straight. Your ankle is more or less 90 degrees from the floor. Now scootch your butt in, which causes your knees to flex - my ankles however, drop and there's a lower edge angle between the floor.

Have you measured your dorsiflexion with the knee to wall test?

https://www.physio-pedia.com/Knee_to_Wall_Test

A lot of people won't get their foot 6cm out from the wall before their heel lifts, which is only around 20 degrees.  If you're at your limit in a carve, you simply can't add any additional flexion in order to bend your knees and absorb the centripetal force or chatter.

A lot of people seem to overlook this, but you may already be seeing it. Sure you can just continue riding and it'll eventually improve, but doing some additional work is another 'cheat code' to get to the next level. 

If you're maxing out at 20 degrees of edge angle, it's going to be VERY limiting.  I haven't checked mine recently, but I was up to 15cm (~55 deg).

Posted by: @skoonk

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However, (and I need to practice more) but I have tried bending my knees mid turn and instead of getting higher edge angle, I feel the board going flat.

I think it's important to note that bending your knees will not give you edge angle "for free", you still have to incline and angulate (bend sideways, crunch your obliques or whatever term you prefer). What bending your knees does is give you the option of inclining more. It also give you more control over how much you tilt the board on edge. James demonstrate this clearly here at 2:45 into the video:

Originally posted in this thread: https://carversconnection.com/community/exegi-doublewide-166/james-rides-the-doublewide/

Posted by: @skoonk

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I'm not sure if this is the best comparison, but here it goes: Sit down on the floor with your knees straight. Your ankle is more or less 90 degrees from the floor. Now scootch your butt in, which causes your knees to flex - my ankles however, drop and there's a lower edge angle between the floor.

This analogy fails because you're not hinged at the hips like that when riding, at least not towards the toeside. And imagine doing the opposite on a toeside turn! You'd snap your back in half trying to bend backwards like that! Or at least I would. 

When you're bending your knees you should strive to do it in a squat like manner. Try in on flat ground, or probably even better indoors on a carpet so you're not sliding anywhere at first. Feel how you need to move to squat without tipping your board (not changing your board angle relative to the ground). Once that feels good you can try to squat on a very mellow flat slope while riding the board flat. If you start tipping or rotating your board you will notice it instantly.

Posted by: @board-doctor

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Have you measured your dorsiflexion with the knee to wall test?

https://www.physio-pedia.com/Knee_to_Wall_Test

A lot of people won't get their foot 6cm out from the wall before their heel lifts, which is only around 20 degrees.  If you're at your limit in a carve, you simply can't add any additional flexion in order to bend your knees and absorb the centripetal force or chatter.

A lot of people seem to overlook this, but you may already be seeing it. Sure you can just continue riding and it'll eventually improve, but doing some additional work is another 'cheat code' to get to the next level. 

If you're maxing out at 20 degrees of edge angle, it's going to be VERY limiting.  I haven't checked mine recently, but I was up to 15cm (~55 deg).

I have notoriously poor flexibility in my ankles, I used to get maybe -3 cm in this test when I ran track because my achilles and ankles were so stiff. Now I get to maybe 7,5 cm or so thanks to shifting to olympic weightlifting instead of running and jumping. Hah.

But you're saying this could be a limiting factor for toe side carves I assume? I don't understand why really? Taking James as the example here, that's definitely less than 45 degrees no? 

And the more I dorsiflex my ankles the less the board angulates? Consider completely stiff ankles and tipping your knees forward, this will tip the board on edge, but if I dorsiflex while tipping my knees forward I will be able to keep the board flat while keeping my knees over the board edge. Isn't this why a stiff boot is good for carving? I utilize the leverage I get from the boot to tip it on edge? Or am I going at this all wrong? Or is it because you need the same type of mobility as you do for a squat that you need that ankle mobility?

Because I also notice that when I get scared I'll go up on my tippy toes in my boots on toe edge and that will 100% of the time result in a terrible turn compared to sinking down and pushing my shins into the front of the boot and let the boot leverage the board on edge compared to try to "lift" the board with a calf raise, because clearly the calf raise has hardly any leverage over the board at all...

Posted by: @superfelix

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But you're saying this could be a limiting factor for toe side carves I assume?

No, heelside!  As you flex your knees you need dorsiflexion in order to maintain the edge angle.

Here's a pic of Lars from Justaride...

Imagine what happens when he needs to absorb a bump.

If you're at the limit of your dorsiflexion, you just can't do it without loosing edge angle and making your pencil line all wobbly.

@board-doctor I'm with you 100%! Thanks

I was curious… and I’m actually up to 18cm now.

(If your wall has a baseboard, don’t forget to add that thickness)

@board-doctor i tried it just now and got 15cm if I was standing up, but around 12cm if kneeling on one knee. But I do agree ankle mobility (and hip mobility!) is important for snowboarding!

Hmmm… that’s a good range of motion, I guess that’s not affecting your struggle with edge angle like I thought it might be.

You commented that James appears to loose edge angle with knee flexion (in that static instruction video), but when forces are at play that doesn’t happen.  A lot of his riding is on steeps with lots of inclination so he doesn’t always need as much angulation… but check out this 360 carve at the bottom, he’s about 180 through it and looking pretty awesome.

@board-doctor in that pic, I feel like James has a very similar posture to the "asian" style (for a lack of better terms here? I remember you shared a Korean carving Youtube video and they emphasized how the BBP (balanced body position) was butt over rear foot and shoulders over front foot, and the front leg was mostly extended straight and the rear knee was bent.

I have tried that style and found more success - I guess my comment referring to the knee bend was like bending both knees at the same time, that's when I feel edge angle drops.

@board-doctor question about the Lars picture - are you saying that he is a vulnerable position to deal with bumps? Isn't his position near identical to the James picture above? Both have a front leg mostly straight, hip/butt sitting over rear foot, bowing the chest to the front knee type of style.

In the photo above I'm compressing a lot, including the shoulder to knee Asian thing, and I'm leaning back too (straighter front leg) because that's how the carved 360 is performed.  Ignore that.

Look at the picture below instead.  Leaning forward, upper body more upright.  A lot of weight on that front leg pressuring the edge just in front of the front heel, and both knees pointing into the turn.

Posted by: @skoonk

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I have tried that style and found more success

I think that works better on milder slopes where they’re trying to maintain speed (and probably why James does this for his 360 at the bottom).  

My point was that these guys maintain board angle while flexing their knees a lot, which requires a good bit of dorsiflexion. I don’t think Lars is in a vulnerable position, I’m sure he can flex further… 

I don’t know why you’re loosing edge angle in a turn.  Your sitting on the floor example seemed to confirm my dorsiflexion suspicions, but you do have a good range of motion.  Maybe it’s just strength conditioning?

Posted by: @wild-cherry

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Think about the level shoulders and knees dropped to the snow on toeside, and the hips facing the nose on heelside. 

Just edited this.  Originally it said "toeside" twice.  Small mistake but I know @skoonk is reading this stuff carefully and I wanted to bring this to his attention.  It's a big difference.