Recommendations for this "Wiggle Carve" style?
What I'm referring to is the sections in this video where I go rapidly from edge to edge, while still using higher edge angles to get locked-in and generate increasing angular momentum.
Basically I want to go even faster from edge to edge. I'm now realizing this is more an "open carve" style following the fall line rather than "closed" across the slope carving.
I'm wondering if I should go shorter or longer on the sidecut, keep it radial or try something progressive/degressive? At first I thought going with a smaller radius sidecut would be good, but now I'm realizing maybe that's not the case given these are quick open turns rather than closed across the slope C carves. Would a shorter radius in the tip or tail or vice-versa be best to accelerate between edge changes?
I was thinking something more directional and tapered, like the Ride Peace Seeker, but actually kinda hesitant about going for a wide waist width (wouldn't that slow down edge to edge?), also not sure I'd be into something backfoot dominant. Maybe the K2 Passport?... Yes PYL. Or would something with a longer radius in the tip/tail, but short radius in the center be better to enhance this style, something like the K2 Atidote or Instrument (or...)?
Basically something that generates lots of acceleration/momentum out of each turn where you can really tap into a rhythm/tempo of the side to side pendulum forces, if that makes sense? I'm not exactly trying to go fast down the line, but more so generate momentum using the rebound out of each carve.
Current specs:
RIDER: 135lbs, 6'1" tall, size 10 US (M) boots.
BOARD: Rossignol Jibsaw HD, 157 board – 253mm waist width, 7.4m radial sidecut, 550mm stance, slight magtek and rocker in tips camber between inserts, true twin. Binding angles: +27, +12.
Thanks for any snowboard geek insights!
So... I think you may have reinvented the crossunder turn? This is where the rider's shoulders stay open to the fall line (always facing down the hill) and the upper body is quiet, with very little movement. It's kind of like a slalom turn, but the way you do it is different with most of the movement in the knees.
A short radius sidecut narrow board with lots of taper and a steeper stance would be my recommendation, but you're obviously the master of the Wiggle Carve so who am I to make suggestions?
Here's my counter: just a few crossunder turns that never got published because the snow was too slow that day and I couldn't maintain my speed. It's a much bigger board, and I was unable to conceive of a proper Wiggle Carve until I saw your video so the cadence and the knee dancing aren't quite right either. Now that I know what it's supposed to look like I will practice every day all winter and maybe after a few seasons I'll publish a Wiggle Carve tutorial series if I learn anything worth sharing. Stay tuned!
I'm just slaying...
I don't have any recommendations or anything, but this gives me strong skateboarding slalom vibes so maybe you can get something out of that? Of course you have way more grip with a urethane wheel on asphalt but the principles of what you want to achieve looks similar.
One thing they do is they really angulate a lot and they use their arms to generate momentum to angulate against. Basically they throw their arms towards the toeside on toeside turns to be able to angulate away from the toeside with the upper body, it looks kind of silly to be honest.
Though you're claiming you don't want to go fast, but the interesting part of a skateboard slalom turn is that they do a cross under turn while really pushing into the board as they extend towards the apex to actually generate speed, so the most skilled of these guys and gals can actually carve, or "pump" as they call it, uphill, it's insane. It's all about generating force into the board to push it in the direction of travel and to load it like a spring and have it rebound up under your feet like with a cross under turn.
Others have also previously brought up the similarities to snowboard carving and skiing and I think this video is showing of a similar style of skiing as you are snowboarding
As you can see he is doing very short down unweighted turns almost letting the skis rebound off the snow during the transition. This is one of the most fun ways to ski on a perfect groomer for me because it allows you to generate tons and tons of force and speed, but it's also very physically exhausting. As far as that guys technique I would probably try to have straighter legs during the apex of the turn compared to what he's doing, but that requires more effort from the rider and more angulation.
Ok, so coming this far then I guess I would have somethings that I would try if I was at your skill level... But take it with a grain of salt as I'm not as good as you are...
A common theme in all the videos above is like James said a calmer upper body and letting the legs do the work, so if I were you I would really try to extend the legs through the apex and retract in the transition period and not be afraid to let the board rebound off the snow and use that rebound to move the board under your center of mass to achieve as early an edge change as you can. This is what you do as a skiier, and from visualizing snowboarding in my mind from the comfort of my bed I think it could work, but it's also difficult to get the timing right and it may not be the pure wiggle as you would get something closer to this type of hop turn
Or like the dolphin turns here, and he talks a bit about the slingshot effect that I think you're after?
Posted by: @wild-cherryA short radius sidecut narrow board with lots of taper and a steeper stance would be my recommendation,
Agreed.
Posted by: @wild-cherrya few crossunder turns that never got published because the snow was too slow that day and I couldn't maintain my speed. It's a much bigger board...
And you've really optimized your equipment for cross-over turns with tons of edge pressure, using stiff boots on a board with minimal torsional flex, largely steering with your hips.
I think the cross-under benefits from more motion below the waist, with more ankle-steering/foot-pedaling to initiate the turn. Some torsional flex, rather than stability, through the centre of the board helps. The retraction/flexion through the (down-unweighted) transition would be easier on a lighter board as well. My Freecarver 6000 is actually fun for this, but certainly not the easiet given its width.
As I mentioned on the 'other' forum, I don't tend to go down the hill like this, but it certainly has it's place. Like on the cat-track return where you don't have much width, or even downhill when space is limited due to terrain or people (when you want to be on edge and in control). Moreover, the down-unweighted turn is much quicker in dicy situations and this skill opens the door to cross-through turns. I think you're most vulnerable during the edge change, so I do this the most while freeriding.
Edge transitions
There are a few ways to change edges:
- Cross-over: Your board stays where it is and your body travels up and over the board in an arc. In this style, you bring your torso up (placing weight on the board as you move up) and then you sink back down to begin the next carve (unweighting the board as you sink). This technique is easier and more natural to learn, but it does not work well on steeps because it takes too long to change edges.
- Cross-under: Your torso stays where it is and your lower body swings back and forth underneath you to change edges. In this style, you bring your legs in (unweighting), then you hop to a new edge for the next turn (placing weight on the board as you enter the next carve). You can change edges quicker than in the cross-over style, however you don't hold edge pressure for as long. [Cross-under and cross-over terminology was used for a long time in skier ETS (Examiner Training Squad) certification.]
- Cross-through: A good technique for ice and steeps, which is a combination of cross-over and cross-under. It consists of bringing your center of gravity straight across the board and downhill by partially unweighting before an edge change, while your knees roll to the next edge. Instead of rising up and then sinking, like in the cross-over, you stay low the entire time. In fact, your body starts out low and gets even lower when your center of gravity passes over the board. The term cross-through was originally coined by Tom Reynolds, a ski coach at UMaine Farmington. Erik Beckman later applied the term to snowboarding in his 1994 self-published book.
If you are a beginner, you can start off with the cross-over technique, then work you way to the cross-through style, with a bit of cross-under on crowded days
(James is the cross-over king on the steeps)
Big White, BC, Canada
Moore's got a vid on it:
Big White, BC, Canada
Tracks don't lie. The goal is to leave a clean narrow carve track when doing cross under carves. From the snow spray and hip motion I'm seeing in your video I'd be surprised if you were there yet.
When I do cross under turns the body motion comes out below my waist. I can feel my pelvis pivoting and tilting, almost as if it was steering the S shape of the turns, with my lower body angling out to each side while my torso remains up right. You should feel your edge bite and hold on both sides.
It's a good drill to practice cross unders on shallower gradient slopes. Get the carve going, get the hip rhythm going, then get as low (angulated) as you can.
There's a bunch of wiggles in this vid... the Asian crowd seems to go wild over them:
Big White, BC, Canada
Posted by: @board-doctorbunch of wiggles
Love this event! I wanted to attend this season but it conflicts with the Montucky Clear Cut. I doubt I could win it, but I would probably drop some jaws at least.
I think the events are a large radius carve comp, a small radius carve comp, and a freestyle groundtrick comp.
Maybe next year.
I'm just slaying...
In order to do linked and dynamic short radius carved turns (with zero skidding), your torso and upper body needs to be the platform your lower body works against. Because of the rebound forces created by turns like this, without a stable platform, your appendages react to the forces and you end up with flappy arms. Think grandfather clock (short radius dynamic carved turns) for crossunder carves vs. metronome for larger turns. The downside to all this is it's heavily reliant on the board's side cut to do the work- you just have to let it eat! It also works better on more mellow terrain because you spend so much time in the fall line that the board picks up a ton of speed.
Posted by: @deuxdieselThink grandfather clock (short radius dynamic carved turns) for crossunder carves vs. metronome for larger turns.
Great analogy!
I'm just slaying...
Thank you everyone for the insights!
@superfelix - Yes, the skateboard slalom vibes is a helpful analogy, definitely getting a lot looking at those movements! I do longboarding in the summer and I feel very similar centrifugal forces with these quick carves.
@wild-cherry and @board-doctor - Oh yeah the wiggles in the Asian short turn style seem very similar to what I refer to.
I have updated footage for reference. So I appear to be doing down-unweighted cross-under retraction style carves (first half of this video)?
@eleaf Nice video! You should make that public. What camera did you use?
Try these turns next time with shoulders and both hands facing down the fall line.
I'm just slaying...
Posted by: @wild-cherry@eleaf Nice video! You should make that public. What camera did you use?
Try these turns next time with shoulders and both hands facing down the fall line.
This is shot with the insta360 x4 on the selfie stick.
Will try that shoulder and hand direction adjustment next time and report back, thanks!!
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