Beginner expectations and a question on gear aquisition syndrome

This probably isn’t the answer that you’re looking for, but I rode a friend’s old Sims switch blade until ‘97.  It was a bit large for me, maybe a 162? when I was like 5’8” and 130 lbs, so it not have much centre or torsional flex.  But I learned decent technique and rode it fine.  Now people seem to get softer boards and learn ankle steering (usually with a duck/warrior stance) first, which works fine at modest speeds.  But it really depends on your preference and what you want to do with it.  I’ve got a friend that’s also in his late 40’s and he’s always rode posi, but is more freestyle oriented.  He can carve and also ride switch really well, and he still rides softer (mid flex) twin boards.  You can try to use any tool, but some are better for certain jobs than others. Every board will be a compromise at something.

I’ll add that I rode nothing but directional twins (always with a stiffer flex) from 1998 until 2018, when I finally got a directional pow board.  It was only a year ago that I got a ‘carving’ board… and now I’m hooked.

Posted by: @zaz

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My question to you, dear reader, is: When did you progress away from your beginner gear, and also why? How did you know it was time?

I had to figure it out at a time where the only information available was in the manufacturers catalogs...

What board are your riding?  How much do you weigh?  How big are your boots?  These things will be big factors in determining how far you can go on your current equipment.  

Boot out will be the other tell tale sign that you've outgrown your gear.

I have a Nitro Prime Raw 163 wide with Nitro staxx bindings.

Boots are Burton Ruler size 44.5. I'm 5'11'' tall and weigh 110 kg.

So far this season I've (apparently, I just checked) been using a +9/+15 stance, which is what they mounted the bindings as at the store when I bought it. I remember them asking and talking with me a bit about stance option and posi-posi and boot drag. At the time I knew precisely nothing about the concepts, and so I just nodded and smiled. 😀

Currently my plan is to experiment more with stances next weekend, but I'm also currently not really stressed about it. I feel I'm still at a place where I'm just trying to learn how to handle a bit steeper slopes, have more control during my turns, to get used to the movements and sensations of the board at a bit higher speeds.

Posted by: @zaz

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Nitro Prime Raw 163 wide

Yeah...  You're way too big for that board.  Especially since you want to start riding faster and carving eventually.

You're going to have to go custom for a carving board with mondo 29.5 feet.  Carl at Exegi Snowboards (exegi.ca) can hook you up for less money than a JJA but it won't have the same materials or ride quality.  Donek can do the same but Exegi is the better board.

On the other hand, if you're getting exercise and having fun then there's nothing wrong with your setup at all!

If carving is your goal then take advantage of your beginner status, use a proper stance and practice good body positions.  Bad habits are very hard to unlearn, best to start by aiming for carving positions.  Go straight to 30/15 stance angles so your comfortable there.  Practice and focus on the positions and the drills in my videos.  Keep your back hand always in view in your goggles, keep your back knee tucked in behind the front and for god's sake, keep your shoulders level!

Great advice! Thank you so much, both of you 😀 

Rider Stats: 187cm, 66kg, Vans Boot US 12

Board: Nitro Quiver Slash 156, 1070 Eff. Edge, 7.7 / 5.7 “Progressive” (even though it gradually reduces in size from nose to tail) Sidecut

Binding: Karakoram Layback (appearing to be middle of the road to slightly softer side of medium flex)

Stance: +21/0, 22” width

Hearing about how people learned to ride posi posi in the ‘90s, as a novice snowboarder interested in becoming more comfortable on my board (able to adjust turn to always feel prepared, hit side hits, do surfy turns) and heavily interested in greatly improving my carving with the overall goal to ride like James or Lars Justaride as he is great at carving but also enjoys powder, what is it that people learned in 90s as opposed to beginners now learning falling leaf? What would be an appropriate stance for learning to reallyyyy carve? Is my setup sufficient?

Also, for the future if I have a new question on here is it better to create a new post totally or “reply” to previous, similar posts with new questions? 

I think 'falling leaf' is still a good thing to learn (that's how I started teaching my kids).  You learn how to weight and ride your edges across the hill, rather than down the fall line (like most skiers). But I'm not an instructor.

Back in the early 90's there wasn't much foot-pedal/ankle-steering, so we learned how to move our weight (hips etc) from side-to-side.  Boards were generally fairly stiff, so we'd learn to manipulate them in turns as well.  I'm just speaking about mass-market, general consumer boards... I didn't race.

I've come to realize that 'carving' is one of those words that people use very differently.  An 'intermediate' that rides through their sidecut will say that they're carving.  An expert will be intentionally carving different shapes with their board using edge angle & the sidecut depth to flex the board, as well as weighting/pressuring different sections.  I like to think that I'm an advanced rider that's working on these techniques, but certainly aware that I haven't mastered them yet.  Seeing people like James & Lars ride is really inspirational, I rarely ever see anyone that's even close to that level in person.

About your board, while those tighter sidecut radii are fun to get you turning, they're going to be limiting at speed.  Your 1070 effective edge is also going to be limiting... it's not a lot to support your weight with increasing G-force.  I suspect the sidecut depth is relatively small, limiting the amount that you can tighten up that radius with edge angle and board flex (though the SCR is already small). It's also so short that it won't be easy to use the front or rear radii more independently (like my Stalefish with a smooth initiation, but really just a tight turner).  A longer EE is just more versatile. Having said that, your's is going to feel looser, which might be good if you want surfy turns.  It's still full camber though.

Surfy is another term that's thrown around with various meanings.  Does it mean looser, playful, less precise?  Are you refering to riding off the tail (not really engaging the nose)? Some boards certainly feel more locked in at the contact points than others. Is it a combination of all these things (and when you know, you just know)?  I'm certainly guilty of saying 'surfy' in different contexts.

Firstly, thank you for your response.

As a newer rider when I talk about my current “carving” I mean riding the sidecut, but when I’m speaking of my goal I mean to carve as an expert, utilizing the edge angle and flex while managing speed with turn shape. I enjoy the feeling of what I can do so far which is probably just riding the sidecut, although I do think about trying to change my shape to manage speed and adjust my line to the terrain but probably slarving in the process. 

SCR confuses me a little - at first I thought I should get a smaller one as I typically ride narrower east coast slopes. Maybe I misinterpreted a video but I think I saw one from Lars that said a larger radius may allow for more flexibility with turn shape. 

I kinda said surfy meaning more casual, playful, and lower speed turns not producing a pencil thin line 100% of the time, and perhaps that is as a result of riding off the tail. I’d still like to be capable of producing a perfect line and riding down entire runs doing so.

I would say my ultimate goal is to be able to confidently and competently carve any shape at any speed because I just enjoy the feeling of making turns.

Posted by: @80seriessarfer

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Maybe I misinterpreted a video but I think I saw one from Lars that said a larger radius may allow for more flexibility with turn shape. 

That is correct.  While it's certainly possible to make a turn larger than your sidecut radius, it's not going to be a smooth line.  OTOH, using higher edge angles (and flexing the board) can really tighten up your turn. 

The Donek dude has a good explanation in the first couple minutes of this video:

Ski specs typically provide the sidecut depth.  They're weighting the middle of a relatively narrow, flexible ski.  That's partially why their SCRs are so large... as they can easily tighten it up.  What I hadn't fully appreciated was how much the effective edge contributes to sidecut depth (because most commercial boards aren't all that different).  If the contact points are further apart, the arc between them is going to produce more sidecut depth.  This depth allows you to flex it into a tighter turn (and skis are often quite long).

As an example, here's my shortest and longest EE (with coincidentally similar SCRs):

148 K2 Special Effects, 1050 EE, 6.6m SCR has ~15mm depth

154 Freecarver 6000, 1280 EE, 6.5m SCR has ~27mm depth (you can turn it ridiculously tight with increasing edge angle)

Some more useful/versatile examples:

Korua Trench Digger is 1250EE, 10m avg has ~16mm depth.

Stranda Shorty 164 is 1273EE, 8.6m avg has ~21mm depth.

(I just used a measuring tape to get those depths)

Interesting stuff. I've been thinking about these things a lot as well. As I've mentioned elsewhere, my custom board uses this sidecut depth and turning with flex concept to keep the middle part of the board engaged better when carving firm conditions with extreme edge angles. I have here a photo showing what happens with a deep sidecut depth board if you try that:

Only very small parts of the sidecut near tip and tail are engaged and obviously that turn didn't end well. With less sidecut depth I can finish that kind of turns even on icy surface. Like this turn (it wasn't as icy though but still spring morning where the slope was groomed in the evening and froze during night):

I don't have that first pic board with me now so can't measure the sidecut depth calculating from the spec sheet (average of nose and tail widths minus waist and the result divided by two) gives me 21.5mm. That shit only works on soft snow. That board is Lib Tech Short & Fat 146, 920EE, 5.8m scr.

For comparison my Coiler CFR 164, 1360EE, 16m measures 12.5mm depth and Ride Timeless 167, 1266EE, 12m scr measures 20.5mm and calculating from the spec sheet also results in 20.5mm. Now the interesting thing about Timeless is that it has tighter sidecut sections near the tip and tail and I think those are not taken into account in the 12m scr spec. The board carves great until you try extreme edge angles when it's icy. Finally, here's a photo with Timeless over the CFR so you can see the shape difference:

To stay at least somewhat on topic, I think a 10m scr carving board for example is easier to carve than so called beginner boards. Beginner boards are really designed to give cheap options to skid with. Carving boards on the other hand will want to carve when you engage the edge (huge generalization though). For a beginner that might come as a surprise and scare you. However, if carving is what you want to learn and you can already comfortably navigate around the resort with skidded turns, I don't see why you couldn't go for a carving board at that point. I discovered carving boards way too late and when I did, it felt as if the board had some kind of autopilot for carving.

Yes, those are some great points (I was speaking to the flexibility of turn shape).  I'm now realizing that I'd really like to get a board that'll carve at a higher speed (more G-force), without the the edge angle causing such a drastic change in the turn radius.  My trench digger feels good, but the construction is speed limited.  At speed, the Shorty tightens up too much for my liking, but its construction is more than enough for my skill level (the ash with aluminum stringers make it very damp so it feels planted).

The Ride Peaceseeker specs look kinda similar to that Nitro Slash and people loved that one.  The Yes Optimistic was quite popular as well.  These have very tight sidecut radii, so they turn quick and easy.  My 6000 is similar, you put it on edge and it just wants to turn.  You can do C-shaped carves without a lot of edge angle (which newbies are often lacking).  I think this is a bit like how the parabolic/shaped skis helped people get turning back in the 90's.  But while it gets people turning, it's definitely limiting. 

Posted by: @80seriessarfer

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What would be an appropriate stance for learning to reallyyyy carve? Is my setup sufficient?

Size 12 feet?  Your setup is not sufficient, no.  You won't be surprised when I recommend the JJA "Working Title" in the store, there are 9 left.  Get the softer flex for your level and 66kg.  Go straight for the 30/15 posi-posi stance and start practicing the drills and body positions shown in my videos, then next season you'll be ready to rip some trenches on the new board.

Posted by: @80seriessarfer

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SCR confuses me a little - at first I thought I should get a smaller one as I typically ride narrower east coast slopes. Maybe I misinterpreted a video but I think I saw one from Lars that said a larger radius may allow for more flexibility with turn shape. 

Indeed...  I've long been arguing that sidecut depth is a more accurate predictor of turn shape than sidecut radius.  Seems @board-doctor agrees. 

The JJA has a 12m radius which seems huge maybe, but because the EE is so long (1430mm) the sidecut depth comes in around 19mm, which is right in the medium range.  The long EE is also going to make the ride much more stable, which in turn makes the board very forgiving.

The other major factor in determining a board's turn shape is the stiffness.  Consider two boards of the same shape but one too soft for the rider and the other too stiff:  the too soft version is going to be playful and fun on greens and blues, it will carve well but it won't hold enough edge pressure for high speed carves on steeps.  The imbalance between the length and the stiffness will mean the board is too long for it's intended turn shape, it will feel extra stable and carve well enough but it will be slow edge to edge and a bit cumbersome compared to a board designed specifically for that rider and the intended turn shape. 

Now consider that same shape but too stiff (not way too stiff, but somewhat too stiff for freecarving).  So now we've shifted the speed range way up: the rider will require more speed to start bending the board and turning, and it won't carve nearly as tightly on greens and blues; it will feel balancey on initiation and slow to engage into turns.  It will need a lot of speed and make very wide turns on easy terrain.  On steeps, however, and at high speeds this board might shine!  I have a few boards that are arguably too stiff for my 71kg.  What I love about them is that there is effectively no maximum limit to the amount of edge pressure they can handle!  The limit is in how much pressure my body can handle with whatever interface I'm using that day.  These are my favourite boards for great days!  I can go long around a brown spot or a crowd of skiers and still get my speed back under control in one big turn below them.  Best, highest g-force turns, but exhausting and dangerous.

The point is that 1. sidecut depth is a better predictor of turn shape than sidecut radius, and 2. the overall stiffness of a board matters at least as much as the sidecut radius in predicting turn shape.

I was already 30 years into my snowboarding career before I was able to ride multiple boards in the identical shapes but different stiffnesses.  It was an eye opener for me when I came to realize how important flex is and how important it is to get the right flex for the rider and the conditions and the terrain.  So some people are surprised that we're only offering the "Working Title" in one size, but most of them maybe don't realize how much flexibility there is to tune the board's characteristics to an individual's needs without changing the shape. 

We're going to look at things like weight and skill level of course when adjusting the flex for individual customers, but also the terrain and the type of snow a rider will be carving.  For example, when riding the medium flex proto in Utah on firm corduroy but very low density snow, I found it a bit boring on greens - too slow for me.  But then coming back to Revelstoke on the same board and a much higher density snow, I found the medium just right.  And the terrain was very different too, black diamond groomers at Powder Mountain are (with some exceptions) only blues at Revelstoke, and riding the Revelstoke black diamonds on this same board the past few days I found I really had to work at first to keep my speed under control.  I adapted quickly though, found the board's maximum edge pressure (maximum speed) and was able to stay under it and keep it turning smooth.  Video coming tomorrow.

Thanks to all of you guys for sharing your knowledge. I look forward to watching your vid tomorrow!