Options for the JJA C4 166

Posted by: @parkcityguy

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I’m an intermediate carver whose daily driver is a Donek Saber 158 with a 30cm waist. I’m 5’10” and 177lbs. Mondo 29 feet. I am wondering if I can pay extra to max out the width beyond the 292. I’m thinking mid flex with EGS.

@board-doctor is correct:

Posted by: @board-doctor

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with the shovel limited to 34cm, I’m guessing you’d be looking at a custom build with a larger SCR (16m?) to get a 30 waist.

This is about the maximum width for a metal board without going to a bigger sidecut radius.  294mm may be possible in this shape but it's a lot more work because the material comes in 340mm so there's no room for error.  Having a few extra millimeters means JJA can be less precise in layering then just trim off the excess.  The only way to make it wider underfoot is to raise the radius and/or drop the taper, and then you're into full custom for sure and it's a very different board. 

Posted by: @adam-farghali

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I feel like the EGS and a stiff board would suit me

At 200lbs you're a little light for the stiffest version but it's yours if you want it.  I'd probably put you in the mid flex with EGS but the choice is yours of course.  You'll get less boot out with a softer flex too.  The stiff version is meant for very tall riders over 220lbs.  Sounds like you could handle it but it's gonna be very fast and harder to turn tightly without booting out.  My guess is that it wouldn't be a daily driver for you, but reserved for the best conditions only.

In the 60+ boards that I've owned (27 customs) I only had one that was clearly too stiff.  It was super fun on easy terrain and very fast, but when I forgot to ride in "bootout prevention mode" I would end up sliding uncontrolled on my back head first at high speed.  "Catastrophic boot out" I called it.  I had to stay off black diamonds on that board so I sold it to a much heavier dude because everything is black diamond on my favourite chair in Revelstoke, even the blue squares.

That board was a little wider than this one and my feet are 2cm smaller than yours too.  We'll make it for you for sure, but be careful what you ask for (and get some risers).

Correction: I also had some Burton race boards in the 90s that were way too stiff for me but I rode those with hard boots on hard surface so boot out wasn't an issue.  The turn shape was the problem there; I just couldn't get them to turn tight enough to control my speed on steeps.  Greens were awesome, but those boards were scary fast and completely unforgiving.

@wild-cherry @board-doctor waiting for the narrower width options, I'm thinking about the flex/EGS configuration. Do you think a medium with EGS will be too stiff for my (slowly growing) 139lbs?

@iacopo If you narrow the width (using the same core construction), it’s going to increase the flex (longitudinal and torsional).  Personally, I wouldn’t narrow the softer flex because I think it might get too soft for me at my weight.  If you’ve got a lot of space and ride firmer conditions, maybe a narrowed medium could be for you? I’m not sure.

They had only planned to make one mold (due to cost), so going narrower makes it a custom build.  I presume that you could make it the exact width that you’d like.  With my 260 boots (287 outer), I’d consider going 10mm narrower… but is it worth it for just 5mm less on each side? And would I regret it in soft snow?  I already have narrower boards, so it might be best to just go wide.  Honestly I’m not certain myself.

Also depends what kind of speed you want to ride at… I aspire to tame my speed like James.

• Posted by: @board-doctor

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  Also depends what kind of speed you want to ride at… I aspire to tame my speed like James.

  Yeah, I'm with you, searching for speed. But when the snow is really soft and bumpy I tend to ride an all mountain or going off-track with a powder board, so I'm not looking for a board specialized for the softest groomers on the earth. My only carving board that I'm using is too stiff for my weight, 259mm at the waist (255 mondopoint boot), and in steep terrain, in every condition, it's a suicide board 🤣. It wants to go straight in a slalom style, extreme angles, in blue slopes, with very firm snow. I'm thinking about a wider board, like 282mm, with the right flex. Right now I'm undecided, the soft one with EGS will be really fun out of the box, but the medium one with EGS will be a board for life.  

Posted by: @wild-cherry

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This is about the maximum width for a metal board without going to a bigger sidecut radius.  294mm may be possible in this shape but it's a lot more work because the material comes in 340mm so there's no room for error.  Having a few extra millimeters means JJA can be less precise in layering then just trim off the excess.  The only way to make it wider underfoot is to raise the radius and/or drop the taper, and then you're into full custom for sure and it's a very different board.

I'm pretty sure Bruce and JJA use the same titanal stash they ordered together and that's 310mm wide. My Coiler is 300mm waist, 335mm nose and 320mm tail or thereabouts (just measured the nose and tail with a ruler, the waist is specified 300mm by Bruce) but the titanal sheet doesn't reach all the way to the edge near the nose and tail of the board. If I measure the width of the board where the titanal doesn't reach the edge, that's 310mm.

So unless JJA has sourced wider titanal from somewhere, it's pretty likely that the titanal just doesn't reach the edge of the board so that's why going for wider waist can be a problem even if the sidecut radius is increased because that moves the location where the titanal doesn't reach the edge of the board closer to the bindings where you would want to have a lot of support. In my board that point is already just about 10cm from the front binding and I'm rocking 16m scr. Here's a photo showing the point near the front binding where the titanal sheet transitions to fiberglass/carbon edge reinforcement. Titanal is just under the topsheet here and it becomes visible again when the nose reaches under 31cm widths again, I don't know how JJA uses it though. Is it visible under the topsheet?

In any case I do agree with James that these boards like high edge angles and you want a lot of width for that. Especially if you ride soft conditions. I mostly ride really firm snow so most of the time 300mm waist is enough for my 270 feet with low footprint boots and bindings but after it has snowed, it's still bootout time unless I bend my legs more than I'd like. Today was awesome when tourists had scraped all the groomers away and it was just the base icy chalk under it but it was really even. Many people had trouble even sideslipping down that section. Damn these titanal boards hold edge so well. As mentioned, different board but I'm sure JJA builds are damn grippy as well so here's an example with my Contra from today (16m scr helps a lot with mid of the board grip here though):

Not sure what's the hangup everyone has with width (you're not the only one @iacopo). I've ridden a 286mm wide board almost exclusively this season; I only spent one day on a Voilé Revelator with 257mm width. There was a very clear difference in terms of "agility" I felt on the Voilé board; it felt much quicker turning even if it's technically the longer board.

However, everybody says a wide board is slow edge to edge, which I guess is a way to describe what's happening, but it's not really accurate. It's really more a question of leverage than anything else.

If you imagine the board as a lever system with your ankle as the pivot point, you see that as you widen the board, the amount of leverage the edge can apply will increase. The thing that fights against that leverage is ultimately your foot, and that's fixed if you're an adult. If you have bigger feet, they'll be able to apply more pressure against the edge, too. So that's why the current thinking is to size a board according to your boot size more than anything else.

What can really help in this equation against leverage is your "interface" (boots and bindings). A stiffer interface will deflect much less against the increased leverage of a wide board. I personally had to change my bindings this season as the ones I had previously were too soft, and I had to crank them too tight to get the response I wanted from them. Stiffer boots will also help a lot, hence why the Insanos are so popular with carvers (Knapton, Lars and I think James all ride them).

I guess my point is that yes, width has some drawbacks, but it's pretty manageable with some adjustments to gear and technique. The benefit is that you can get much higher board angulation without booting out, which is a requirement for carving. But yeah, with 25.5 mondo feet this might not be a problem for you even with regular width boards, why are you interested in the C4 in the first place?

Posted by: @iacopo

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a board for life.  

There's no such thing as a board for life...  I've had 27 custom boards for example, I counted them yesterday.  Everything wears out eventually and you'll want the latest tech in a few years as it develops.  You had said that your budget was not limited so maybe think about building a quiver rather than one board to do it all and last forever.

I put an intermediate carver at 148lbs on the medium flex proto earlier this season and he loved it, even on steep blues.  But at the same time, at my 155lbs and elite level I still enjoy the soft flexing protos when conditions are not perfect or when my body is tired.  This board is not boring or slow.

So at 139lbs I would strongly suggest the soft flex with EGS for you @iacopo.

The next model we release will be a faster board, less forgiving and carving a thinner track.  I'm thinking 171cm with a 15m sidecut, very close to my favourite board.  If you get that one next season you'll pretty much have the ultimate carving quiver; the big one for great conditions and the smaller softer C4 for variable conditions, early season when you're not as strong, and for crowded weekend days.

And I agree with @xargo, you would be fine with a 292mm waist.  You'll get used to it fast and never have to adjust your technique to avoid boot out.  You won't need risers and you'll get away with lower stance angles which means more comfort and versatility.

Two things to note: first, the soft C4 is probably way stiffer than you're expecting. 

And second, the EGS does not affect the stiffness of the board, just the grip vs forgiveness factor.  The C4 without EGS is only recommended for tentative (non-aggressive) lightweight riders.  I'm thinking of people over 60 who want the extra forgiveness and an easy riding board, and who don't expect to be craving more speed in the immediate future.  But again, the difference is quite subtle for the C4.  When we make the 171 "Scalpel" the grip factor will be much higher, and so will the speed range, risk and intensity.   (Mmmmm...  Speed, risk and intensity...  I'm gonna miss winter.)

Posted by: @emilecantin

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There was a very clear difference in terms of "agility" I felt on the Voilé board; it felt much quicker turning even if it's technically the longer board.

Yeah this is important point to bear in mind and I totally agree. Actually my thinking is that the board should be as narrow as possible for the given task. For me that's 300mm waist and even then I have to go -21R/+21F angles (or +21R/+33F with posi/posi) in order to not bootout the back foot and that's on firm snow. For softer snow and/or lower angles, it would have to be wider still (which isn't possible with titanal boards, at least for now).

That's only for high edge angle carving though. I almost always also bring a 256mm board when I hit the slopes so I can ride something that doesn't require as much effort when I feel lazy. Works great for upright carving which is a lot of fun too. Carving a wide board can be pretty tiring in comparison.

So if I just go with simple trigonometry and relax the rear foot angle to 12deg and decrease the footprint by 15mm to get to MP25.5, that would result in 299mm waist with the same bootout potential I have currently. Of course laid down carves with extended legs is quite an extreme use case but I'm assuming people looking to buy these boards are looking for extreme use cases. I'm not saying titanal boards wouldn't be great for more casual carving too though. I'm just saying these kind of boards are capable of handling extreme use cases so to me it seems like a waste not to spec the board for that and try to push your riding towards a goal like that. I know I would regret buying a 270mm waist board for example and hit the bootout territory pretty soon while knowing I could have gone with 290+ waist and being able to progress my riding to a way higher level.

Actually I did try a 266mm waist board with posi/posi stance just the other day but I had to go for +30R/+42F angles to get rid of the bootout and I felt like I should have just used hardboots at that point. MP27 boots.

Posted by: @emilecantin

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yes, width has some drawbacks, but it's pretty manageable with some adjustments to gear and technique. The benefit is that you can get much higher board angulation without booting out, which is a requirement for carving.

Agreed!

Posted by: @emilecantin

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But yeah, with 25.5 mondo feet this might not be a problem for you even with regular width boards, why are you interested in the C4 in the first place?

The C4 is about way more than width!  You'll see @emilecantin.  While I haven't ridden everything out there, I don't think there's any other board in it's class, except maybe the Coiler Contra but the ride quality is quite different even if the design objectives were similar.

"Shut up Tyler!"  Lol...  You know where they first heard that right?

Posted by: @wild-cherry

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The C4 is about way more than width!  You'll see @emilecantin.

I'm going from your comments in your videos, where you say that there's nobody making wide titanal boards, except JJA and Coiler, so if he's looking for a narrow titanal board, he can just go to Kessler, SG, Swoard, etc... There's just more options on the market for these narrower boards.

Posted by: @wild-cherry

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"Shut up Tyler!"  Lol...  You know where they first heard that right?

We used to have a rooster named Hercules, we'd tell him to shut up too... Or is there another story there?

Yeah I want the titanal dampening and more of a freecarver vs BX/race... and after riding it, I just want it.

My Freecarver 6000 is 277mm underfoot and I do boot out when it's soft, so I'd like to go wider than that.  Twice last weekend I slid on my face and got snow under my sunglasses!  I've been working on my heelside, but clearly I need to stack my weight better on the toeside.

Was I correct that the nose is 340-ish?  (I don't recall where I got that from)

@wild-cherry @xargo @emilecantin I read your observations and I understood perfectly, it all makes sense. I'm going for a soft one with EGS, standard width. I appreciate your help, thank you!

Hi guys!

Here is my info: 
Carving experience: 150 days on snow (3 years)
Snowboarding: 12+ years
Height: 174cm (5 ft. 7)
Weight: 76kg (167 lbs)
Boots: 27 mondo

When carving I ride 80% blue and 20% red runs at medium speed, touching the snow on the heelside with my hand and rear.
My carving boards are SG Soul (159xt) and Virus X-carve Zylon II (163cm). 
When I put these two snowboards on the edge the turn radius is somewhat smaller than I would like it to be...

Should I get the soft C4 with EGS or the medium one with EGS?
I am leaning towards a medium one but I haven't tried Titanal snowboards yet so I don't know if it will be too stiff for my ability...
It will be ridden primarily on groomed days, sometimes in icy conditions with artificial snow. 

Any help and recommendations are greatly appreciated! 🙂

Posted by: @damir

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I haven't tried Titanal snowboards yet so I don't know if it will be too stiff for my ability...

Titanal dampens and absorbs vibrations, it doesn't change board stiffness directly. Considering you have an SG Soul XT (epic board, pretty soft), I think you can go for the medium with EGS, building a solid quiver of boards.