One of the JJA protypes James shows in his video is fitted with a sliding axle plate. What is that supposed to achieve?
The plate is attached to the board at both ends with a mechanism including an axle that allows the board to rotate relative to the plate as the board flexes. One end, conventionally the front, allows the axle to slide inwards as the board flexes and the distance between the two axles shortens. The amount of slide required is typically less than 1.5cm.
Sliding axle isolation plate designs have been on the racing scene since around 2008. The current racers plate of choice, the AllFlex, is a development of this technology.
A sliding axle isolation plate achieves a number of things.
a) it isolates the rider from the longitudinal flex of the board. The board can flex freely underneath the rider and the rider/racer is less aware of the bumps and ruts. Rider fatigue is less, and the "feel" of the surface beneath is reduced. But, the snow remains carveable for longer in the day, even after the corduroy has been skidded to shreds.
b) there are no flat/extra stiff areas in the board where the bindings are mounted. Typically the attachment points of these plates are more across the board than along the board.
c) the plate is torsionally very stiff so that twisting of the board between the plate attachment points is minimised while the board can freely flex along its length. This improved torsion control generally results in better edge hold and a narrower track. (NB: The current AllFlex plates come in jointed variants to allow racers some control over torsion, and have limits on how much the board can flex along its length. They are designed for use with slalom and giant slalom race boards, and the boards are designed to utilise the design features of the AllFlex plate)
d) the plate attachment points to the board are significantly further apart than the riders stance width. This has the effect of reducing the apparent rider mass the board experiences when a carved turn is made. The board doesn't flex as much as if the same rider was riding an unplated board, the board feels "stiffer" to the rider.
e) Downsides:
Extra weight on the chairlift dragging on your leg, plus snow build up between plate and board adding to that weight.
Extra cost and complexity, more screws to come loose and parts to fail.
There are a number of different plate attachment insert patterns. Insert pattern and plate must match.
The extra inserts are further away from the centre of the board, in thinner parts of the core, and every extra insert creates a weak spot in the board increasing the chance of failure.
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I have designed, built and ridden my own sliding axle plate design. I have ridden the Bomber Boiler Plate sliding axle plate. I have a broken Coiler Giant Slalom race board on my wall that failed at a plate insert point after a collision.
There are tradeoffs in riding with a plate. There are definite performance gains. If you regularly ride on marginal snow conditions for carving they may be worth it for you.
If you regularly ride well groomed, uncrowded snow, that never thaws and refreezes, you lucky bastard and I'm envious! But you don't need an isolation plate.
This topic was modified 10 months ago 2 times by RiotSupercarver
I've actually never ridden a plate before. This might be the perfect time, we didn't get as much fresh snow today as expected and it's all refrozen snow up high under the 4cm fresh. I would call that marginal, but I have pretty high standards for corduroy...
It’d be interesting to try, and I could be wrong, but I don’t think I’d like it.
I think I actually like having a bit of feedback from the surface that’s under me, as well as the feeling of the natural board flex in a turn. I can certainly see the advantages for a racer though.
Amongst riders who don't like plates the lack of feel is a common gripe.
Amongst those who do like plates fatigue reduction is a common compliment.
Having ridden plates when they first came out (2010), my recent build Titanal equipped Coiler Nirvana (2017 build) and Contra (2023) boards handle poorer conditions well enough that I ride them without a plate. My older boards are definitely improved with an isolation plate. I suspect also that my technique, in particular the way I use my knees to absorb bumps has vastly improved over the intervening years.
I’m plate curious, a challenge I have is riding early hardpacked/frozen corduroy early in the morning. Where hardbooting shines on white ice is a challenge for me. So I’m curious: do I need to improve or is this the reason to mount plates on a wide sb board?
This post was modified 10 months ago by wintervince
@wild-cherry I'm very curious to see how you like plates. I have not seen what JJ's system looks like but I did find on the bomberonline.com site some soft boot plate that include canting. Have you seen those? Expensive but they seem to give good canting solutions.
I'm very curious to see how you like plates. I have not seen what JJ's system looks like but I did find on the bomberonline.com site some soft boot plate that include canting. Have you seen those? Expensive but they seem to give good canting solutions.
The Bomber Power Plates? Extremely heavy... Bomber went through some strange times a few years back (which included I think one indictment for embezzlement) and the plates weren't available for a while. I sold mine at that time to a friend from the forum at alpinesnowboarder.com at a premium.
We have a design for a much lighter canted riser that will be cheaper too with the same functionality. We're working on quotes for manufacturing now. I expect we'll have stock for the fall.
I had a chance to ride that JJA plate too a few weeks ago, that's something else entirely. It was definitely faster and smoother, and it improved my turns. It made carving less fatiguing because the board takes any small chatter or imperfect lines and absorbs it before the rider even feels it. I had to look at my tracks to see what was happening. It was kind of amazing how much the board will compensate and correct itself without any rider input. Usually I feel like I'm absorbing the chatter with my body and setting the board back on course myself.
Since I was so high up I didn't need such a wide board. I thought of how @board-doctor must have felt his first time on a wide board, it was a bit awkward and balancey.
And importantly, I could no longer bend the board with my feet so carved 360s were almost impossible. I also didn't realize before how much I was doing that; I thought I was just leaning toward the tail but it turns out I've been pulling hard with the front foot too. I've been playing with that new awareness and have carved a few 720s now - like a circle inside a circle! I have some track photos but no video yet.
I felt like with this kind of setup I'm losing so much of the versatility that I love about soft boots that I figured I might as well have been riding hard boots that day. Now an isolation plate under hard boots... That makes a lot more sense, I understand now @riotsupercarver...
Minor thread jack: Bomber had new owners from within the hardboot community about 2016/17. The new owners made poor decisions and the business failed. One of them defrauded their employer of a significant sum, probably to try to support the business. Bomber became bankrupt and was sold to the current owner. The business now runs with minimal overhead costs and seems to be providing good product and reliable service.
@wild-cherry do you happen to have some pic's of the new cant's.It would be interesting to see what they look like. In any case I will putting my name down for a set when they come out next fall. I trust your expertise and want to carve with the minimum strain on my old bones and joints.
@flyguy Hi Flyguy - Hey James - it would be awesome to have a canting system for softboot bindings like F2 makes for hardboot bindings - left/right inward cant & toe/heel lift. I have some ideas and would be happy to help develop a prototype.
@rocketman69ocketman69 Yeah, a canted riser was kind of the whole raison d'etre of this website. We have a design, prototypes are on their way to me now. I'm quite curious to know what you've come up with though, the design was trickier than the flat riser for sure and there's usually more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak.
...it would be awesome to have a canting system for softboot bindings like F2 makes for hardboot bindings - left/right inward cant & toe/heel lift. I have some ideas and would be happy to help develop a prototype.
The F2 cants and lifts are of fixed amounts, 4 degrees of lift, and 3 degrees of lateral tilt. The F2 kit only has one lift in it, typically a hardbooter will use lift on both feet, toe lift at the front and heel lift at the rear.
The amount of canting needed varies significantly with the binding angles and stance distance used by a rider of any given physique. The ability to tweak lift and canting incrementally would be useful in any system. The Bomber lift/cant rotating discs are a good example of one way of producing this incremental effect.
If you haven't already seen it, you might want to watch this....
